I love it, great list. One other thing that stands out to me as a major reason for leaving was finally getting over the hurdle of misunderstood emotions.
I was taught that bad feelings were either warnings from the Holy Ghost or temptations from the devil. That good feelings were the Holy Ghost confirming the undeniable truth of things.
This made it so hard to even take any of these arguments seriously - I would hear them and immediately feel the cognitive dissonance and persecution complex kick into full gear, get overwhelmed by a “oh no these are scary and evil things, the devil is trying to deceive me and lead me away” and then pretty much run away from the thoughts, hum “I am a Child of God” for the umpteenth time, and then go on with my day.
Once I finally realized that feeling ‘good’ about something means you *like* it and not that it’s *true*, the rest really clicked into place for me.
Then I realized that my feelings *all* come from within and I’ve had to try and figure out what all that shit means in therapy. Yay trauma and being an emotionally immature 30 year old 😢
I missed this too. TY for the clarification. Yes. Problems with epistemology would also be my #1 reason. In fact. I left the church solely for this reason. Before CES letters, before internet popularized the Church's history, etc....
I missed this point. I just wrote my own essentially agreeing with this. There simply is no delineating between normal human emotions and emotions "from the spirit." What is worse there is a bias in interpreting situations where one's "power of discernment" reaches a positive outcome versus the millions of situations where this same "power of discernment" reaches a negative, and often pathological outcome. The former is extolled while the latter is buried under some boilerplated concept of "well, everyone has their free will" or "god will never not allow us to choose"....
This is a great list! I’m not sure if this is an important reason or if others have felt this way, but for me, the thing that made me take a step back first was seeing the way members treated others, especially online. From my point of view, members were treating others who have different views, whether they are religious or political, horribly. I observed how quickly many members jumped to name calling and degrading comments if anyone voiced an opinion opposing theirs, more often online than in person. This made me question if I wanted to be associated with a group of people who couldn’t have open conversations and be willing to learn from others points of views. That’s not to say that all members behave this way. But seeing this sort of behavior online, for anyone in the world to see, from people who claim to be followers of Jesus, was very unsettling to me. It was after I took this step back that I learned about everything on this list, my shelf breaker being the ex-communication of those fighting for children within the church and hearing heartbreaking stories of child abuse by church leaders. Thank you so much for the work you do! Hopefully this helps.
Patriarchy- which includes sexism, but as a woman, patriarchy and the hierarchy associated with it, goes beyond merely sexism. It’s a harmful culture for both men and women. The church has so much benevolent patriarchy which we often don’t recognize as sexism. When you recognize the inherent system is harmful and set up for you to fail as a woman, it can be hard.
Prop 8 was extremely hard! We lived in CA at the time and I refused to participate in the campaigning the church wanted to do and they pressed hard in my area.
I'll add that Prop 8 and the mission age change were huge hits to my view of leadership in the Church and whether they were divinely inspired or not.
Prop 8 was a violation of the promise that the Church was politically neutral, and fueled by homophobia.
Mission age change KEPT a 1 year gap between men & women and the shortened time of service for women, and the only reason that made sense was that leadership wanted women to get married off as Freshman at BYU to RMs or at least come home as soon as possible to be back "on the market" for marriage and baby-making.
“Us vs them” rhetoric (doctrinal superiority complex) making the world and nonmembers out to be evil
How we treat and talk about people who leave the church (toxic for relationships; cult-like behavior)
The simple fact that so many of our youth have suicidal ideation, often stemming from regular doctrinal teachings (shame, destroying eternal families, homosexuality, etc). And the fact that normal church attendance triggers this in so many of them, often while at church.
In all my Mormon experience we were always highly exclusive. Us versus them in every aspect of life. Not sure how old I was when that fact struck me as “hmmm not very Christian…”
All of these are good. I would only add "Exploitation of the good will/nature of its members." By that, I mean the constant societal pressure to run yourself into the ground for church callings and activities, leaving nothing for yourself and your family, and they call it righteous.
It was actually therapy and the study of psychology that led me out initially. Simply learning about what was actually healthy allowed me to see things in the church that I hadn't seen before: all the coercive tactics that created shame and fear. I could no longer live in such an unhealthy environment, and I certainly didn't want my children to grow up in it. I learned about all the other stuff after leaving, which caused me to remove my name and be absolutely certain I had made the right decision.
Realizing the power of discernment was bs…too many awful people “called by god” to positions of authority was a big one for me. Also, fully comprehending how polygamy is still a doctrine and being practiced even if it’s only in the next life.
This needs to be one. I've seen tons of Bishops, Relief Society Presidents, etc. on Mormon Stories because I think, when you become a leader tasked with using discernment, you realize nobody above you knows anything more than you do. Everyone is winging it.
Don’t see this specifically outlined, but there’s no on going revelations that add anything. They only receive revelation to remove aspects or decrease obligations and never call it revelation, just policy changes. They can’t answer questions and don’t care for the sick, lame, or needy. They don’t lead by example, no missionary work or outreach from the top 15 business men in suits-white or dark but always in suits. No interaction with the world, just member instructions and chastisement.
One of my biggest realizations as a teenager was that either (1) these 70s and apostles are all perfect and have never made a mistake, or (2) they are all hypocrites and will never share a story of meaningful repentance.
I don't care that you almost forgot to say your prayers and read scriptures and go to church as a busy dad & med student.
I don't care that you stepped on a scorpion because you wore sandals your dad told you not too wear in the Saudi desert.
Where are the stories about alcoholism? Infidelity? Teenage pregnancy? If those are shared, it is always someone they know, or a story they were told, never personal experiences.
I realized they were probably all hypocrites like I was as a Deacon/Teacher/Priest Quorum President too ashamed to be myself, and pretending to get "inspiration" in how I led the Quorum or suggested callings.
Mormon culture is what initially made me pull away. The rest of this list then followed suit and I left.
I never fit the mold, was always left out by the other girls in all the youth activities. Felt very alone for years. Then going to BYU-ID just made all of those feelings so much worse. Even though one semester I did actually have great roommates, I never fit in and would barely speak, even though I was following all the rules and doing everything right. Maybe it was due to being neurodivergent, but I’m not sure. BYU-ID put me in a very dark place.
As an introvert and highly sensitive person (an internalized form of neurodivergence) going to church was torture but i always strived to be as obedient and faithful as i could be. I also always felt out of place and left out. I had to expend large amounts of energy to mask and people please in order to be accepted. In short, trying to fit into the mold was terrible for my mental health. Not to mention debilitating chronic illnesses also made it nearly impossible for me to be "active." In hindsight, being less active probably helped me become more open minded and able to think critically. The church is ableist and people like us often don't feel safe in the community. I hope you're healing from your religious trauma and feeling more peace in your life
I totally agree on chronic illnesses and not being able to attended church often also helped me have an open mind. Thank you for helping me see even more evidence of how ableist the church is. Thank you for sharing with me
This is a good and comprehensive list. Many of my reasons are on there. But for me and some of the people I have talked to it was learning about Christianity. When I started reading a different Bible translation and books from others outside the faith, I realized how much Mormonism contradicted the Bible and Christianity- which then led me to a place where I found out about some of these other things. So for me it would be all the history ones on this list after watching the current leaders seem to never know what they were or were not supporting socially/ politically and reading the Bible without Mormon footnotes and explanation.
For a church that claims to be all about family, I felt like the church (not the members) was terrible and supporting the family. For example: long meetings where you're expected to sit quietly so you spend the whole time shushing your kids or taking them out in the hall, men are on the stand and not with their families to help with kids, small, smelly mother's rooms with old, broken furniture where you had to feed your kids next to a poopy diaper change, no changing tables in men's rooms and mothers room door was through the bathroom, meetings before church so mom's have to get kids ready alone, callings taking away from family time, church services during nap, etc. I didn't start feeling this until I had children and saw the flaws and I guess, while it didn't make me leave, per se, it made me question why God's church wasn't a place I wanted to he with my family because it wasn't built for us. It was one of first big cracks.
Great list! But what seems missing for me as a common issue that causes people to step away (especially before hearing about the issues on the list which are often hidden) is: ongoing failure to live up to promises of inspiration and discernment at every level of leadership.
(eg patriarchal blessings not making sense, people getting called into inappropriate callings, prayerful personal answers/revelations contradicting what leaders say, people lying in bishop interviews and still receiving temple recommends/ordinances, prophets never being ahead of anything, most pulpit inspiration is cold reading like "I feel inspired to talk about (insert common issue) today" and then 10+ people think "god is sending me a direct message" or people will assume the message does mean someone to someone else so it's a hit either way, healing blessings never really working / the need to talk about "faith not to be healed", etc.)
This flaw in the everyday experience vs the promises of inspired leadership and authority is hard to hide (although they do try).
This is exactly what took me from TBM to PIMO. Years of evidence that leaders weren't inspired culminated when my wife and I were given very demanding callings while we had very young children, and my calling in particular was a bad fit personally. This was a huge strain on our family/marriage. I tried to see it as a trial God wanted for us, but I couldn't believe it was best for us. It was dark days. Grappling with this disintegrated my belief very quickly because the inspiration, the connection to God, is the bedrock that made Mormonism different than all other churches, right?
I stayed there for years not believing, but also thinking it cannot be proven one way or the other. I was completely unaware of the CES Letter, Mormon Stories, etc. Once I discovered those and the information in the list, that was when I knew I needed to transition out.
Love this! Mine was hypocrisy, piety of church leaders, and Nelson's talk 'Think Celestial'. Specifically 'the one great privilege God shares with all his children is to reproduce and procreate' because not all of "God's" children received that blessing. Also, we don't teach families will be forever, we teach families will be separated in Heaven if we don't keep all of the Church's rules....."Families can be together forever BUT.......".
Everything listed above solidified my decision to leave and to accept that this church was not true. Each one of these items provides evidence that this organization is not a healthy one. For me, it started with ward dynamics, such as feeling like a second class citizen because my husband wasn’t active or becoming a “ward project” because someone had a prompting (this person had spoken to me once before). Yes, I recognized the manipulative nature of this “project” even then. Also, the high demands and expectations that came with this religion was too much. I always felt less than enough. I found myself burnt out. The burnout really was the reason for allowing myself to entertain any “anti” Mormon messaging. Your YouTube channel shorts came up on my Facebook feed and that was it. No going back. Thank you for your part in sharing information that the church feels has to be hidden or excused. I have never felt this feeling of being enough, contented , and most importantly, no more burnout. My Husband even says I am a nicer person. Really! Your work gave me the ability to choose living with authenticity!
I love it, great list. One other thing that stands out to me as a major reason for leaving was finally getting over the hurdle of misunderstood emotions.
I was taught that bad feelings were either warnings from the Holy Ghost or temptations from the devil. That good feelings were the Holy Ghost confirming the undeniable truth of things.
This made it so hard to even take any of these arguments seriously - I would hear them and immediately feel the cognitive dissonance and persecution complex kick into full gear, get overwhelmed by a “oh no these are scary and evil things, the devil is trying to deceive me and lead me away” and then pretty much run away from the thoughts, hum “I am a Child of God” for the umpteenth time, and then go on with my day.
Once I finally realized that feeling ‘good’ about something means you *like* it and not that it’s *true*, the rest really clicked into place for me.
Then I realized that my feelings *all* come from within and I’ve had to try and figure out what all that shit means in therapy. Yay trauma and being an emotionally immature 30 year old 😢
Yes. I plan to cover this in #19. It’s what I mean by epistemology. Thank you!!!
Ah, my bad haha I did miss the epistemology call out on that bullet point 🤦♂️ thanks again for all you do!!
I missed this too. TY for the clarification. Yes. Problems with epistemology would also be my #1 reason. In fact. I left the church solely for this reason. Before CES letters, before internet popularized the Church's history, etc....
I missed this point. I just wrote my own essentially agreeing with this. There simply is no delineating between normal human emotions and emotions "from the spirit." What is worse there is a bias in interpreting situations where one's "power of discernment" reaches a positive outcome versus the millions of situations where this same "power of discernment" reaches a negative, and often pathological outcome. The former is extolled while the latter is buried under some boilerplated concept of "well, everyone has their free will" or "god will never not allow us to choose"....
This is a great list! I’m not sure if this is an important reason or if others have felt this way, but for me, the thing that made me take a step back first was seeing the way members treated others, especially online. From my point of view, members were treating others who have different views, whether they are religious or political, horribly. I observed how quickly many members jumped to name calling and degrading comments if anyone voiced an opinion opposing theirs, more often online than in person. This made me question if I wanted to be associated with a group of people who couldn’t have open conversations and be willing to learn from others points of views. That’s not to say that all members behave this way. But seeing this sort of behavior online, for anyone in the world to see, from people who claim to be followers of Jesus, was very unsettling to me. It was after I took this step back that I learned about everything on this list, my shelf breaker being the ex-communication of those fighting for children within the church and hearing heartbreaking stories of child abuse by church leaders. Thank you so much for the work you do! Hopefully this helps.
Yes. Mormon culture is a huge problem for many. Thanks Jailee.
Patriarchy- which includes sexism, but as a woman, patriarchy and the hierarchy associated with it, goes beyond merely sexism. It’s a harmful culture for both men and women. The church has so much benevolent patriarchy which we often don’t recognize as sexism. When you recognize the inherent system is harmful and set up for you to fail as a woman, it can be hard.
Prop 8 was extremely hard! We lived in CA at the time and I refused to participate in the campaigning the church wanted to do and they pressed hard in my area.
I'll add that Prop 8 and the mission age change were huge hits to my view of leadership in the Church and whether they were divinely inspired or not.
Prop 8 was a violation of the promise that the Church was politically neutral, and fueled by homophobia.
Mission age change KEPT a 1 year gap between men & women and the shortened time of service for women, and the only reason that made sense was that leadership wanted women to get married off as Freshman at BYU to RMs or at least come home as soon as possible to be back "on the market" for marriage and baby-making.
“Us vs them” rhetoric (doctrinal superiority complex) making the world and nonmembers out to be evil
How we treat and talk about people who leave the church (toxic for relationships; cult-like behavior)
The simple fact that so many of our youth have suicidal ideation, often stemming from regular doctrinal teachings (shame, destroying eternal families, homosexuality, etc). And the fact that normal church attendance triggers this in so many of them, often while at church.
This.
In all my Mormon experience we were always highly exclusive. Us versus them in every aspect of life. Not sure how old I was when that fact struck me as “hmmm not very Christian…”
All of these are good. I would only add "Exploitation of the good will/nature of its members." By that, I mean the constant societal pressure to run yourself into the ground for church callings and activities, leaving nothing for yourself and your family, and they call it righteous.
It was actually therapy and the study of psychology that led me out initially. Simply learning about what was actually healthy allowed me to see things in the church that I hadn't seen before: all the coercive tactics that created shame and fear. I could no longer live in such an unhealthy environment, and I certainly didn't want my children to grow up in it. I learned about all the other stuff after leaving, which caused me to remove my name and be absolutely certain I had made the right decision.
Realizing the power of discernment was bs…too many awful people “called by god” to positions of authority was a big one for me. Also, fully comprehending how polygamy is still a doctrine and being practiced even if it’s only in the next life.
This needs to be one. I've seen tons of Bishops, Relief Society Presidents, etc. on Mormon Stories because I think, when you become a leader tasked with using discernment, you realize nobody above you knows anything more than you do. Everyone is winging it.
Boy, this 100%. I'd also add that when you get into certain callings and you see how the sausage is made, man that was a major eye opener for me.
Don’t see this specifically outlined, but there’s no on going revelations that add anything. They only receive revelation to remove aspects or decrease obligations and never call it revelation, just policy changes. They can’t answer questions and don’t care for the sick, lame, or needy. They don’t lead by example, no missionary work or outreach from the top 15 business men in suits-white or dark but always in suits. No interaction with the world, just member instructions and chastisement.
One of my biggest realizations as a teenager was that either (1) these 70s and apostles are all perfect and have never made a mistake, or (2) they are all hypocrites and will never share a story of meaningful repentance.
I don't care that you almost forgot to say your prayers and read scriptures and go to church as a busy dad & med student.
I don't care that you stepped on a scorpion because you wore sandals your dad told you not too wear in the Saudi desert.
Where are the stories about alcoholism? Infidelity? Teenage pregnancy? If those are shared, it is always someone they know, or a story they were told, never personal experiences.
I realized they were probably all hypocrites like I was as a Deacon/Teacher/Priest Quorum President too ashamed to be myself, and pretending to get "inspiration" in how I led the Quorum or suggested callings.
Mormon culture is what initially made me pull away. The rest of this list then followed suit and I left.
I never fit the mold, was always left out by the other girls in all the youth activities. Felt very alone for years. Then going to BYU-ID just made all of those feelings so much worse. Even though one semester I did actually have great roommates, I never fit in and would barely speak, even though I was following all the rules and doing everything right. Maybe it was due to being neurodivergent, but I’m not sure. BYU-ID put me in a very dark place.
As an introvert and highly sensitive person (an internalized form of neurodivergence) going to church was torture but i always strived to be as obedient and faithful as i could be. I also always felt out of place and left out. I had to expend large amounts of energy to mask and people please in order to be accepted. In short, trying to fit into the mold was terrible for my mental health. Not to mention debilitating chronic illnesses also made it nearly impossible for me to be "active." In hindsight, being less active probably helped me become more open minded and able to think critically. The church is ableist and people like us often don't feel safe in the community. I hope you're healing from your religious trauma and feeling more peace in your life
I totally agree on chronic illnesses and not being able to attended church often also helped me have an open mind. Thank you for helping me see even more evidence of how ableist the church is. Thank you for sharing with me
Realizing the control I was allowing men with false authority to have over my life.
This is a good and comprehensive list. Many of my reasons are on there. But for me and some of the people I have talked to it was learning about Christianity. When I started reading a different Bible translation and books from others outside the faith, I realized how much Mormonism contradicted the Bible and Christianity- which then led me to a place where I found out about some of these other things. So for me it would be all the history ones on this list after watching the current leaders seem to never know what they were or were not supporting socially/ politically and reading the Bible without Mormon footnotes and explanation.
Yes. Many see Mormonism as conflicting with the Bible. Thanks Cheryl!
For a church that claims to be all about family, I felt like the church (not the members) was terrible and supporting the family. For example: long meetings where you're expected to sit quietly so you spend the whole time shushing your kids or taking them out in the hall, men are on the stand and not with their families to help with kids, small, smelly mother's rooms with old, broken furniture where you had to feed your kids next to a poopy diaper change, no changing tables in men's rooms and mothers room door was through the bathroom, meetings before church so mom's have to get kids ready alone, callings taking away from family time, church services during nap, etc. I didn't start feeling this until I had children and saw the flaws and I guess, while it didn't make me leave, per se, it made me question why God's church wasn't a place I wanted to he with my family because it wasn't built for us. It was one of first big cracks.
My wife and I visited other Churches with my parents (step dad is Presbyterian) and were blown away at the facilities and staff for children...
Yet they had SOOO fewer children and young families in attendance. Mind boggling.
Great list! But what seems missing for me as a common issue that causes people to step away (especially before hearing about the issues on the list which are often hidden) is: ongoing failure to live up to promises of inspiration and discernment at every level of leadership.
(eg patriarchal blessings not making sense, people getting called into inappropriate callings, prayerful personal answers/revelations contradicting what leaders say, people lying in bishop interviews and still receiving temple recommends/ordinances, prophets never being ahead of anything, most pulpit inspiration is cold reading like "I feel inspired to talk about (insert common issue) today" and then 10+ people think "god is sending me a direct message" or people will assume the message does mean someone to someone else so it's a hit either way, healing blessings never really working / the need to talk about "faith not to be healed", etc.)
This flaw in the everyday experience vs the promises of inspired leadership and authority is hard to hide (although they do try).
This is exactly what took me from TBM to PIMO. Years of evidence that leaders weren't inspired culminated when my wife and I were given very demanding callings while we had very young children, and my calling in particular was a bad fit personally. This was a huge strain on our family/marriage. I tried to see it as a trial God wanted for us, but I couldn't believe it was best for us. It was dark days. Grappling with this disintegrated my belief very quickly because the inspiration, the connection to God, is the bedrock that made Mormonism different than all other churches, right?
I stayed there for years not believing, but also thinking it cannot be proven one way or the other. I was completely unaware of the CES Letter, Mormon Stories, etc. Once I discovered those and the information in the list, that was when I knew I needed to transition out.
Second anointing
Love this! Mine was hypocrisy, piety of church leaders, and Nelson's talk 'Think Celestial'. Specifically 'the one great privilege God shares with all his children is to reproduce and procreate' because not all of "God's" children received that blessing. Also, we don't teach families will be forever, we teach families will be separated in Heaven if we don't keep all of the Church's rules....."Families can be together forever BUT.......".
Everything listed above solidified my decision to leave and to accept that this church was not true. Each one of these items provides evidence that this organization is not a healthy one. For me, it started with ward dynamics, such as feeling like a second class citizen because my husband wasn’t active or becoming a “ward project” because someone had a prompting (this person had spoken to me once before). Yes, I recognized the manipulative nature of this “project” even then. Also, the high demands and expectations that came with this religion was too much. I always felt less than enough. I found myself burnt out. The burnout really was the reason for allowing myself to entertain any “anti” Mormon messaging. Your YouTube channel shorts came up on my Facebook feed and that was it. No going back. Thank you for your part in sharing information that the church feels has to be hidden or excused. I have never felt this feeling of being enough, contented , and most importantly, no more burnout. My Husband even says I am a nicer person. Really! Your work gave me the ability to choose living with authenticity!